“Including yourself, it seems?”
If it seems that way to you jimmyscouse, then I apologize, because it’s not. Yes it is true that that label has been tagged to me, in one form or another, but it doesn’t bother me. Because if it did, I would do something about it, and I would never get involved in what I’m doing.
I think rationally. The truth is, I have a life that I wouldn’t trade with anyone. I have everything I need and want, I have a great family, and I surround myself with a lot of positive friends. I love them all and it’s reciprocated. Why would I let anyone piss on my parade? I’ll quickly acknowledge my gay friends as I do my straight friends. If my straight friends can’t handle it, fuck’em, they’ve gotta go. Business associates, fuck’em too, they’ll get hungry and want to be back in bed with me. I continue to smile everyday, jimmy, and nobody will be able to stop that. It’s unfortunate that more people can’t feel that way, that’s what I’m trying to say.

Interesting Showy, because I didn't say, but I thought just what Jimmy asked, but it was not my place to 'label' you one thing or another, but while we are on that point, it has never been clear to me your sexual predilection. Your sensitivity & understanding to the unique world of TG though is apparent.

I play this game of verbage with my coterie of old friends aka tricks I see on some form of regular basis: either weekly, every month or so, or even every few years when one of these boys comes out of the woodwork for a repeat perpetration. These boys are all "straight", yet honey if they were with me and doing the things I like (and they can only come back if they do or show potential) then technically they are not 100% straight. Would I ever tell this to them? No, I do my nursely best to put them at ease (which gets to my agenda far more easily & efficiently), but if we talk about it, and some are enlightened enough to do so (very post coital cigarette moment as I become confessee & therapist to the chaser of the moment), I use my standard answer that has worked during my many years of playing the tranny chase...

quote:

---

Sexuality is a continuum, 10% are 100% straight, 10% are 100% homosexual, and the other 80% fall somewhere inbetween. How far one goes depends on his/her comfort level.

---

Thank you Masters & Johnson. Some variation of this usually has worked very well in my years of trolling through the nightclubs of the 90s, especially when a boy is hungry for the treats a special girl has to offer. My pat response is also delivered in that reassuring nursely tone that has proved very successful for me. It gives them permission to explore their natural inclinations and desires, which society tells them is NOT OK...it's gay. Horrors! The word strikes fear in every straight boys heart to be called or referred to as this...sad, no?

Relationships with these kind of boys, beyond the half-hour husband variety (gotta give Sweetie credit for that term- love it), is a challenge for the special girl, and it takes a very special man to rise to that challenge as well.

So with all the challenges a girl transitioning faces, like your TG friend who feels like a 2nd class citizen it seems, so then the challenges of a relationship of this type tied into that, it is easier to see why people have a hard time uniting under one umbrella of community to fight for broader rights, inclusion, etc.

For the special girls and boys who like them it takes a lot of self-actualization...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Night Nurse,

thank you randella.

it is very hard to be a icon and a real person at the same time. when the choice comes, it is better to be a real person working-it-out then a symbol acting out for the rest of us. and there seems so little intimacy involved in waging a social war.

during the socially rebellious '60's, we just did what ever it was we decided to do. we made the rules for ourselves, didn't wait for permission as the old labels seem silly. it was not organizing everyone, rather we took what was ours, our personal freedom and exploring with it, not allowing others to stop our world by defining it for us.

yes, the fight now may be for the personal freedom that individuality brings to sexual identity, not the identity itself. that way we can all join in the cause.

recognition in sexual identity issues are usually chosen for us, we seldom volunteer. the media finds some Courtney Love lookalike and then claims 'they' all look like that. how do we establish our individuality when Maury is having a show that ask........ guy or real girl?

women playing men in the theatre seems harder somehow than men playing women, or so the history of theatre goes. watching Roseanne Barr act like a man at the LOBO in her repeats suggests that playing a male is not about mannerism, rather sexual attitude which is close to identy.

and we can't legislate attitude, while Sebrina...............

love,

merlin

Randella, Your question was tastefully asked, and I do believe that you deserve a decent answer. I am a straight male. I love women, always have and always will. A males genitals doesn’t appeal to me in the least. To some it does, and I feel that is to be respected. In an ironic twist, my professional, personal and social life seems very contradicting to that. A little over a year 1/2 ago, fate took a weird turn when I met a TG, that my girlfriend had been raving about after their introduction. As strange as it may have been at first, I began to realize that this was a true genuine person. As different as we were, we had some similarities. One, being our weakness for an unhealthy, party lifestyle. Something that I had successfully refrained from for 10 years and I’m still fighting. A few weeks after befriending one another, I received a call at 2am at my home in CT. It was my new little T-girl friend “I hate this life and I want it to stop, are you my friend”. From that point on, we were on a different level. I returned to the city to meet her for lunch the next day, and a truthful conversation that lasted hours. Even more, this person was wasting a great talent. Entertainment, something she had known for years but kicked to the side. Somehow, this day, we set life altering goals. She took the world of sobriety seriously and gained a respect from me that nobody ever had. We started to ease her way back into the entertainment world and somehow my projects seem to have a real meaning.
Today, she is my business partner of sort, my confidant and my best friend. Next to my family she is the most important person in my life. Everyone important in my life knows her, and loves her as I do. There is no hiding her. My kids live to have “movie and ice cream night” at her house and she cherishs them as well. I make no bones about it, she is part of my family.
With rumors, assumptions, innuendos let the truth be told, this is who I am. I don’t know if there is a label for me. But if there is, slap it on me.
Thank you Randell for your polite manner and know that it's appreciated.

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I find your posts so offensive and I am not easily offended. The condesending manner with which you offer your support/acceptance of others lifestyles. The constant superior tone of your posts, while often pointing out the stigmas attached to others lifetsyles (lifestyles you so graciously support at all cost to your social standing and career).
Finally, you continually refering to the fact that you are hetrosexual bothers me....but hey who am I to judge?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jimmyscouse,

I am with you on that Jimmy. Showy, I don't know if you realize that the constant references to being st8 with a kid...yet still having TS/TV pals ...the way its all put ...sort of reminds me of folks who say "oh I have a black friend". You fascination with TS/TV is I believe probably much deeper than ever you might like to admit....the ole saying methinks the lady duth protest too much...
But you know what do I know... I am st8 and I have a kid - too.

I agree there's a definate "slumming-with-the trannys" tone to your posts, though I'm not offended by it. And of course the straight-married-surbanite-with-kids is an archetype that everyone in the GLBT community is accustomed to seeing (or, in some cases, being force-fed). Maybe I'm just numb to it all ....

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Let me address each accusation if I may
Jimmy, where is the superior tone to my acknowledgment of having mentioned some of the things I did. Never did I speak offensively about a sole, infact I was making the point that, if two people who have so very little in common from the front view, how did we find so much in common. Now if we can come together why can’t TG’S UNITE. The topic in discussion, remember. Sorry I can’t change myself for you, and I won’t ask that of you. I’m comfortable with you living your life the way you choose. So the only straight people men are ignorant and mean to men who are gay. I’ll let you make you idiotic assumptions. I know it must be tough to see it for what it is. If more straight people live as I do, instead of gay-bashing, you won’t have anything to cry about.

Anna, It’s wild how you can read a man you never met. I would never question your sexuality or your fact of being a mother. You’ve made it very clear as well that you have kids. A small boy for one, right? You’ve also drilled the fact that you love men of color, haven’t you? Well, if I were to tell you that my children mother is West Indian, would you assume negative motives in that case too. And how would you read yourself.

Lex, I have to say that what I read was shocking and disappointing to read. I always thought highly of you. Between your urge to address political issues and your will to eloquently show the irrational views of those opposed to your lifestyle, has always been a source of thought and enlightening for me. As you may remember, I’m East Harlem bred much as you are, and my choice to live part time in CT doesn’t ever change who I am. So even if I was a suburbanite, or married (which I’m not), or the fact that I’m a proud dad, should this mean that I should refrain from the TG world, because I lack “TG street Cred?”
I never said that I slummed or ever made any reference to that point. I did admit that it was a weird thing for me at first, but that was the truth and never meant to be offensive. It was for her as well. In all stuff done, all this time, we’ve realized that all the “straight , TG, gay, Chinese, white” categories, are much about nothing. They were only obstacles that are supposed to keep us from interacting rationally. I thought that maybe you’d at least encourage that.
I always said to myself, since we’re in the same area, that I would see you at the 116th (4-5-6) stop, and I would come up and introduce myself. (You can’t be too far off from your avatar photo) I don’t know, I wouldn’t want my attempt to be friendly to be taken as slumming.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Show Producer,

quote:Jimmy, where is the superior tone
quote:I’m comfortable with you living your life the way you choose

Right there asshole, you are comortable with me living my life.

Oops..here I go..into the fray..can't keep my big mouth shut. But here goes.

Show/ It isn't what you say, it's how you say it. It isn't that you are straight or bi or whatever..Maybe it's that to some folks your
support of this community seems somehow beyound just a community support, but as though you have a personal stake in it. Yet you say you are straight and married to a gg ( generic girl) and that your friend Daisy is just so wonderful that you want to be as supportive as you can. That's honest and well intentioned. But Bud, you're here on the TG/TS forums like ALL the time., giving your opinions and perspectives as though you were a specialist on the topic. There are a lot of people here and about these boards that have lived it, suffered it, escaped from the prejedice to live their dream and it took a lot of hard and painful work. Somehow, your conversations make it sound as though you know all about such a challenging life when it is by your own admission a " new experience" that you came to be aquainted with through your friend. Your intention is appreciated but perhaps you need to have walked in the proverbial high heel to really
grasp why these folks have question with you.
Like my brothers the african americans say. " It's a black thing." but you don't have to be black to appreciate the culture.

Jimmy's perspective about your superior tone is like a woman saying. " My husband let's me do anything I want." He LETS her? That is not liberation. And to say that you are comfortable with anyone else's life can be understood as though someone can live they're life because you are comfortable with it. Who cares if you are comfortable with it. Only you should care. It doesn't matter to those who live their lives free of the approval of others. Like Anna Nicole and Jimmy and Lex and me too. Think about it.

I for one think you are smart and funny and that you always seem to try to be polite and fair in your observations and you have manners. I like that. I say bravo for trying to be a fair and conscious minded person.
But we can always ask ourselves if we can be better. And then undertake the endeaver. And not because you want others to approve of you or your lifestyle but because it's the most honest and fair way to live.

I'm outta here now.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: bobby,

Quote:If more straight people live as I do, instead of gay-bashing, you won’t have anything to cry about.

Do I really need to reply to this?

I think its how you write it...I totally agree with Bobby...(an Jimmy/Lex) but the tone in which its written almost paints TS/TV as 'pets' in a farce ("My new lil t girl")- something to be patronized. Like the folks who say "you know I know black people.. I have a friend whose black... but I am white you know...and you know I live in park Avenue but you know we let them visit our perfect white world now and then..its so cute...those black folk that we help visit us in out perfect world ...did i tell you I was white and lives in the perfect world" .. this is how it all comes off to me... patronizing... i don't know about TS/TV cos I am not one... i cannot begin to type up long thesis on their life... all I can tell you is that i have honestly found your superior tone offensive when you talk about 'them' and your obvious fascination with 'them'..... i have felt on these here boards that often we don't agree with each other but there's been a level peggin with all of us but I haven't gotten that from your posts...its as if you are here to enlighten us from a more superior positions... perhaps you don't see this... but most folk here are totally honest with who they are on here..tranny chasers and all.... and I don't think you are open and on a level ground when you post....that's what I find offensive/or dissapointing...again just my opinion...but I see it as I read it...
Sorry its late and am rambling and I'm tired....you are right .. I don't know you.. but to be honest you seem to front so much I don't think on these here boards anyone with ever get to KNOW the REAL you...don't be affraid to be who you really are on these boards...it's not your job or your 'perfect' CT world that makes your new friends here... I have found its folks honestly and the opportunity for a honest level and equal converstaion .... Show Producer.... or Tranny Chaser or frickin Supermarker worker... it don't matter... thats the whole deal here that I don't think you get... when you post... equal balanced non superior/patronizing... open minded exchange of thoughts and opinions.... not dictatorship from a high tower which to be honest is what I feel.... sorry mate but tis true.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Anna Nicole,

As the TG we are speaking of, my point needs to be made.
Show has never treated me anything but his equal.
Anna, I’ve never been treated as a pet, that’s an insult. He has had success to allow him to get a better life for his kids, so what. Does that have anything to do with our friendship, he shows me respect for who I am. I’ve never had kids, but it ok for me to love ice cream night with his kids, and it’s ok if he enjoyed the Sweetie show. It’s all new to both of us. He IS straight and I'm TG and we've accepted that, and I don’t care what anyone thinks about it. If he’s cool with me being a TG, I’m ok with the fact that he’s straight. As you may know, I was beaten and hospitalized by straight men, and probably had every reason not to trust him, but we’ve given each other a chance and something good happened. If he says “my little t-girl friend” it’s simply a tender side to him and the fact that there is a big size difference. I’m less offended by that, then when you use “Fag Hag.”
Bobby I do hear what you are saying and always respect your words, but nobody has seen is, that he is trying to get justice for the assault that the police never considered working with me, for myself. He has witnessed the way the world of law treats us, for the past, nearly 2 years. But he continues. Not bad for “not one of us.” I really wish you knew him.

If there are two people who have learned something in the past couple years, it’s both show and I. We’ve learned to accept, respect and see each others lifestyle for what it is. We would have never made it this far if not. Please go to the top of this section and reread, he has only encouraged UNITY and has shown April his support. For that, he has been labeled, called an asshole and has even seen a death threat. You’ve returned the hate that we’ve known all to well. It’s a TV/TS forum, true, but what’s that all about?

It’s not easy for me to write, because of the English issue, but I needed to say something. I wish you all the best

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Daisy ... i wish you well.
Am tired of going over this again.. but my point is that I take offense to what Showy puts down in print on there here boards...perhaps he is not the man he paints himself here....still ..i stand by my opinions above on what I feel...hope that we can all have an honest open more supportive communication where we speak of who we truly are not who we believe we are... end of story

Your English is just fine and well thought out, Daisy. You must have been busy this afternoon. One of the things that you say that is so true is that we have both learned so much from one another. Before we met, the only time I saw TG’s is on the daytime shows that demean people. Giving everyone who watched the sense that, “hey, this is everything that is wrong with the world”. The fact is you have shown me everything that is right in it. Everything that has happened to you and you still manage to spread love and keep your head up. That is a lesson I can never pay back.
Maybe the assault has so much to do with my bitterness. I do see everything that we’re going through with this and I’ve become angered by the disregard. By both the police and by the one TG, who holds the key to all the answers and who I kindly pleaded with to (anonymously) help us get justice. Only to find that they don’t have the energy for the “bullshit drama”. So, when the question arises, can TG’s unite? God, I hope someday. It kills me to see what that assault has done to you, mentally and physically. Gay, Straight, BI, TG, whatever- you were treat less than human, and I can’t get past that.
Yes, you know who I am and so do I. Other people hold the right to comment on that and make assumptions that has to be expected. I knew what was coming before I wrote my response. When I am criticized for simply voicing my intent to quit smoking, (on another topic) and show courtesy for those who don’t, I know my place. I will not return the name calling, or any derogatory remarks, I feel the hate has made its presence felt enough.
If the moderators feel that I’m incensing others in these rooms with my manner, I ask that you Private message me, and I’ll bow out gracefully. Thank you

I wish Daisy, that you would share more often, your life has given you a priceless knowledge that some may find very interesting. Or, at least stream some out takes of what happens to a show producer when he clashes with a irritated Diva. “No more wire hangers” God, we love you.

Au contrare (sp?), dear Showy, your comments keep the discussion flowing, so don't take your marbles home but keep playing, but in that same vein members certainly have the right to tell you how they think and feel and have a right to their reactions to your posts, just as you do to their's. Lights, camera, action- discourse, discourse, discourse...

Though I admit that it was just getting a treacly here. And I feel the need to match your wire hanger quip with one of my own, but rather the old wicked witch simultaneously cackling & purring "how sentinmental, but leaving so soon, why the party is just getting started." If you want more of a visual, I could throw down the hourglass for effect and the red crystals would turn into a puff of smoke. However, I am not the Wicked Witch of the West, and this is not the Wizard of Oz.

Seriously though, Daisy from what I hear, it sounds like you have been through a lot, and all I wish for you is happiness- however that is defined by you.

But back to you Showy, members are questioning your motives, perhaps beyond just friendship with Daisy. Maybe its the jaded cynicism that comes from living in New York as we just don't believe a pure altruistic motive, as we look objectively with one raised gypsy/carny eye at the surface facts, so the question still hangs in the air, why you are hanging out with a TG? It's a natural question that we are just trying to grasp an understanding. Why are you such an advocate for the disenfranchised? Is it the collective group, or just the party of one? You and Daisy both answered to some degree, but take yourself out and objectively look at the situation, and it makes sense why members would question the motives as to your TG-friendly stance.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Night Nurse,

To clarify my part in all this, for some time I sensed a vaguely patronizing tone in your posts, Show Producer. But I could never put my finger on it exactly or qualify it in concrete terms. So I said nothing and didn’t feel it worth mentioning. However based on the fact that others voiced the same opinion (with no prompting from me), I can now only conclude that there must be some validity to my feelings. That's why I entered the fray.

Believe me I think it’s great when a hetero man can be comfortable and hang out with fags, dykes and trannys. I totally celebrate that 100%. And encourage it. I myself have plenty of male and female straight friends and feel my life is richer because of it, as surely their lives are richer by knowing the fabulous Lex! And it doesn’t matter where you come from, live, if you kids or not, etc. Rather – as Bobby said – it’s not so much what you say but rather the manner/ tone in which you say it. My reference to suburbia was a reminder that the hetero white picket fence establishment often smugly pitches their lifestyle at the GLBT community as some kind of higher caste that we as queers are supposed to aspire to, and it seemed at times that you were going to great lengths to place yourself in that caste and remind everyone of your straightness at every turn, all the while carrying on like the patron saint of trannyhood with your face buried deeply in Daisy’s snatch. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong, just a bit heavy-handed. But some will indeed interpret that as condescending and be offended by it. Also I agree with Randella that by positioning yourself as some kind of expert on tranny issues, it makes the more jaded among us question what’s really up. The suspicion? Namely that you dig TG pussy and are not owning up to it, disdainfully distancing yourself from the label of "chaser" and any unsavory connotations that come with it.

But at the end of the day you certainly don’t need to prove yourself to anyone on these Boards, including me. Nobody’s perfect, and I have no issues with you. If you say you are **this** then that's what you are and I have no issue with it. Of course we all wish Daisy the best. If you’ve helped her in some significant way, then you’re to be commended for that and I’m genuinely glad for both of you. And I encourage you as well to remain part of the discussion and to grow from it as I have.

Daisy: If you've been bashed, take some self-defense classes, girl. You'll feel better about yourself while fighting back in a positive way. Remember Tina Turner in the back of the limo with Ike. You may get some blood on your white Yves Saint Laurent suit but you can still be a badass. You don't have to take any shit from any man and you will survive.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Luxury Lex,

When April first initiated this particular topic (Can the TG Community unite?) my reflex response was that this is not the right focus, that I have learned over the years that the focus should be on self, rather than trying to move the masses. I believe that finding ones peace is more dramatic than most realize, and that living from that context does more to educate others than all the talk and postering and campaigning in the world. I thought that instead of being contrary, I would just allow those who wanted to discuss unification to proceed. I also am quite honestly disinclined to have any desire to unite with other transgendered individuals just because we have that in commmon. I much rather have enough time in my life to be with those already vibrating in my daily time/space continum, which are people from all sexual and gender orientations.

When I first came out and began my transition, I was all so enthusiastic about "Uniting the Transgendered Spectrum." After having lived the life long enough I see that as a diversion, or a pipedream at best, that doesn't address the real issue of self development and how that affects those around oneself. I'm not at all interested, and so I departed this forum without any further adieu.

Enter Brigit Brat. She made her commentary the way she sees it, and though she was way over the top, she was also being quite tongue-in-cheak. I actually had a good laugh when I read her going off on SHow Producer. I believe that that was the first time anyone had "read" him on these boards, and I must admit, she went way over the top doing so. But the moderator felt that she had to be censored and deleted just about all she said. Now there can be no further commentary about that. Fini. I must also admit that I was extremely put off by SHow Producers attitude in this forum , as well as his commentary and assumptions. His assumed commentary about what Brigit had initially said was, I thought, quite condescending and uncalled for. It was as if he thought that April had to for some reason be protected from someone disagreeing, but it didn't stop there, he made personal assumptionary remarks about Brigit. When she finally read them and came back on the offensive, he reacted as if he was lilly white clean of any wrong-doing. One thing that I believe must be remembered, is that when one uses sarcasm, that they not act with surprise when it comes back at them, in this case threefold (or morefold).

On more than this topic on these boards, I will refrain from comment. But I do not think that Brigit's comments should have been deleted, and am on the other hand happy to show Brigit that so many of the cream of the Motherboards have come here to get involved, if not on her behalf, at least in continuance of the debate that she had opened wide.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Stacy Amber,