The new Whole Foods on Housten Street is, according to the Daily News, the largest grocery store in Manhattan.

I have conflicting thoughts about this place. I love it up and down, but then I wonder if I'm a sucker for buying into it.

I generally hate chain stores. I don't like large corporations and what they represent. I can easily see WF putting small health food stored out of business.

If you walk around in there is a lot of in-your-face bragging about their progressiveness: the trash is separated for recycling, there is a sign telling you that they pay for their workers health insurance, there is a sign explaining their commitment to fair trade, there is a sticker telling you that the paper towels in the bathroom are 100% recycled, etc.


While it does start to seem like a caricature of itself, it does seem like a good sign when someones trying to do the right thing, even if it's ultimately a marketing scheme.

I mean, if I were to bitch a bout big corporations I'd bitch that they are pushing junk food, wasting paper, not insuring their workers, and running sweatshops. Whole Foods, at lest on the surface, is not like McDonalds or Kmart.

It can be pricey but hey, they sell healthy food and gourmet food, that's usually pricey. Their store brand is not expensive.


A big problem with America is that junk food is so mainstream that it's cheap. It's supply and demand.

Why is brown rice more expensive than white rice,there's less work involved in producing it? Because most people eat white, more of it is produced, and therefor it's cheaper.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Miss Understood,

it's true they deliver healthier choices.
they've been vilified for running smaller, local, "mom&pop" health food stores out of town with ruthless tactics like opening a bigger, glitzier mega-market with name brand recognition just a block away from the small guy.
also... "sustainable agriculture" involves LOCAL farms and farmers... and sometimes those guys can't afford to jump through the hoops required to get labeled "organic" or even "natural."
in my experience, whole foods (or "whole paycheck" as many call it) isn't terribly picky about where it's food comes from - garlic from china, beef from south america - as long as it bears the "organic" stamp of approval.
in the long run... this doesn't help our economy or our planet. alot of fossil fuel is consumed in getting these products into our baskets and onto our plates.
you'd do better to shop first at the union square greenmarket, then pick up what you can't get there at whole foods. organic/all natural is better than the over-processed junk mass-produced/distributed at chains like wal-mart but is not the remedy to the cancer that's run rampant and unchecked in our food culture for far too long now.

here's an in-depth book about things like this:
The Revolution Will Not Be Microwaved

and i'm glad you started this topic, missy.
bless.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: goblin73,

"I'm so exhausted. Just came over here from the new Whole Foods."

-Penny Arcade earlier this evening at the Gene Frankel Theatre

Whole Foods is very expensive, although I would go there if I wanted fresh fish. I'm a Trader Joe's gal. As for organic being better quality and sustainable, think again. Chemical pesticides are designed by the brightest chemical engineers in the world and are targeted and break down after a short period of time. If you want organic coffee, I hope you like horse urine, (I know many of you do, so please don't take offense), because that is what is used for a pesticide. You see, if you can't use a "chemical", you have to find the most noxious natural substance instead. I remember the old Monsanto slogan "Life is Chemical". It's true.
Before the invention of chemical fertilizers and pesticides poor helpless women, babies and "people of color" starved or were under-nourished. The "Green Revolution" changed all that. Have you noticed the e-coli contaminations lately? Organic farming. They use cow shit for fertilizer. Bacteria are much more dangerous than nitrogen. As for sustainability, if all food produced were organic, you would need as many cows as people. The nice friendly cows would denude the landscape of vegitation, destroy all native species and as we all know, every time a cow farts a polar bear falls through the ice. And to top it all off, most environmental organizations have achieved their goals already and have morphed into socialist political organs. GreenPeace was great when they stood between harpoons and whales, but now they're just a bunch of aging hippies and naive college students.

Zooming across Houston in a cab the other day I noticed the new Whole Foods is finally open. I'll have to check it out. We're on 10th Street & Second Ave, pretty much smack in the middle between Houston and the Union Square Whole Foods.

Like everyone else I tend to go on the basis of convenience too. A lot of our day-to-day shopping is done at a gourmet deli on Second Ave across from Veselka actually. I like Whole Foods but 'tis pricey. Love Trader Joe's but rarely go because the EXTREMELY LONG check-out lines at ALL HOURS are real turn-off to me. I just don't have the time. We do however regularly patronize the Trader Joe's Wine Shop, which for us has totally replaced Astor Wines & Spirits as our neighorhood liquor store of choice. (All the Trader Joe's clerks know Napoleon by name, he's a big star there)

As someone who doesn't cook and lived off Lean Cuisines as a bachelor, I've never really entered into the organic food debate or questioned too much the intent or primacy of Whole Foods. Also I don't intrinsically believe all big corporations are evil, though some are of course (tobacco companies, Halliburton, Exxon-Mobil). For me much depends on what the organization stands for and how they conduct business. The vast majority of the time however it's really a gray area. The company might be insidious in some respects in terms of their product, accounting or marketing practices but also give huge $$$ to charities through foundations and function as primary enablers of their employees to have mortgages, 401K plans, college educations for their kids and (for gays) push cultural issues such as same-sex domestic partner medical benefits (check out the Human Rights Campaign's Corporate Equality Index). Granted the companies do much of their good deeds for the purpose of remaining competitive in business, not for humanitarian reasons. But it's hard to ignore the results, good or bad. It's a mixed bag. In the case of Whole Foods I'm inclined to continue shopping there so long as they have something I want. I also patronize small stores and other chains depending. Variety is good.

What one has to understand is that the word “organic” belongs to the feds. They make the rules as to what is labeled organic and what can’t be called organic. So, if one has faith in their gov’t, then they will have the same faith in their foods being labeled organic. And as I read many posts around the internet, there doesn’t seem top be a lot of trust in our Gov’t.

There are different levels of organic farming, yes, as Darla says, some farmers will go to the extremes of what they are allowed to use and still have their product labeled organic. But some farmers won’t go to these same extremes, there are other methods for pest control and fertilizing of crops. I agree, just because a food is labeled organic, this doesn’t mean it is healthy or was grown under the best conditions, all organic means is that it follows the rules the Gov’t placed on crops that can be labled organic.

Not all farmers use cow manures for fertilizing crops, some may use other combinations with the use of cow manure included. Also, if cows are raised properly, then there should be no harm from e-coli infections from the manure. Today, most cows are raised in barns and sheds and are fed grains their whole lives. This is what creates the conditions for e-coli to be in manures. If cows were to be raised on the pastures eating grasses, then e-coli would not be a problem. Cows must be raised “organically as well in order for the organic cycle to be correct.

A farmer can also use kelp and seaweed as fertilizers, rock fertilizers are another option as well as the use of green cover crops. Legumes are crops that can harness nitrogen from the air and place it in the soil in their roots. Legumes mixed with deep root grasses are the best way to fertilize with plants. The grasses have a long root system that enables the roots to dig deeply for food and then brings these fertilizers up closer to the surface of the soil so the short rooted vegetable plants can use these fertilizers for themselves.

Also a farmer that uses the N-P-K chemical fertilizers are not putting the needed minerals back into the soil. Yes a crop will grow quite healthy with just the N-P-K chemicals but this crop will be lacking in minerals such as iron, zinc,and other minerals that the human body needs to survive and fight infections and diseases.
Also the use of chemical fertilizers kill many insects and biological life in the soils making the soils barren, this creates the need for more use of a tractor to plow the lands so the soil is aerated, where before, worms can do the same job.


As far as pesticides go, yes the organic laws do permit the use of some nasty stuff, but this can only be blamed on the Gov’t who makes the organic rules. A true organic farmer knows how to use other methods than harmful ways that are allowed. The farmers who use harsh organic methods of pest control are usually the farmers that are switching from the old chemical methods and are now trying to grow organic crops.
The main reason that pesticides are used in such great amounts is because American farmers use a mono-culture growing system, where by they grow the same crop year after year in the same plot of land, usually corn. Pests thrive in mono-culture farms, each year the pests bred more and more, because they have a guaranteed food supply, and more and more pestiside is needed each year to fight the pests. Also, the use of chemical pesticides kill all insects and biological life forms, it doesn’t just target the bad pests. The bad pests have natural enemies that attack the bad pests, but chemical pesticides kill them as well. And beneficial bugs produce at a slower rate than the bad pests so the bad pests have the upper hand at the crop the following year. There are other methods that work for pest control that are just as good as the harsh methods that are allowed by the Gov’t. Crop rotation is the first phase in pest control. Not all pests attack the same plant, so by rotating a crop the bugs that have mated and reproduced their many offspring into the soil are lost when they emerge in the spring only to find their food supply has vanished, replaced by a crop they don’t eat. Also pests have a natural enemy, by introducing these enemies to the crop fields will have an impact on the numbers of pests. One must grow plants that will attract beneficial bugs that will devour the pests. Also planting a “catch” crop some where on the field will help. Some bugs will eat more than one type of plant, but they will prefer one plant over another, so by planting some other plant that will attract the pests away from the main crop would help. Also, some pests have cycle to their lives, not all pests live the whole year, or are active the whole year. So by planting the crop when a pest is least active would also help.

If one wants to know if organic farming works, then go and see the Amish, they have being farming safely for quite a long time. And look at the Amish, you’ll see 70 year old men still working the fields, hell,, a 65 year old male New Yorker barely has the strength to wipe his butt. Lol
Darla is right, there are very harsh methods that are allowed under the current organic rules, but there are some farmers that do not use these harsh methods. One has to somehow find a farmer that doesn’t use these methods, how can one do that living in NYC,, I don’t know. But if one can drive to an organic farm, most of these farmers are more than happy to show you how they grow their crops. Maybe the best way to get the best foods would be to find one of these farmers and see if he has a system by where one could buy his vegetables on some kind of plan, I forget what it’s called. It’s like a plan where by someone purchases vegetables in advance and the farmer produces these foods for the customer, but I don’t know if the farmer would deliver or one might have to go to the farm.

I can not give links or proof of what I just typed, I didn’t get these ideas from a book or the net, I lived on an organic farm for awhile and learned some stuff. Yea, a tranny on a farm,,, Elly Mae, lol
There is a writer that does write some good stuff about organic farming, his name is Elliot Coleman, he lives in New England and he has some good thoughts about organic foods. He doesn’t follow the Gov’t rules of farming, also he won’t pay the fee for the honor of the Gov’t allowing him the use of the word “organic” to his foods. Yes, organic growers must pay a fee to the Gov’t in order to call their foods organic, yet the chemical growers do not have to pay a fee.

I’m sorry if what I wrote was kinda boring. Maybe if I included an Amish buggy chase scene, where the buggies crashed in a massive explosion, maybe this might have made my post more exciting. lol

Also, I don't know much about Whole Foods, never been there.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Babette,

wow, babette... what a wealth of knowledge.
i think what you're talking about - buying food from a local farmer ahead of time - is called "community supported agriculture" or CSA. there was an article about groups like that forming around NYC in a recent issue of time out.
how it works is that a number of people buy a "share" of a farm. that goes to cover the expenses of running the farm and in return the "shareholder" gets a certain percentage of that farm's yield. in addition to keeping the money out of the government's hands it helps the local farmer out in case of drought, blight, or any other problems that could lead to crop failure. just like owning stock in a company, you share its benefits as well as its losses.
try googling that if you're interested:
community supported agriculture.
i think it's the most sustainable way of farming/food purchasing.

i'll have to look for elliot coleman. might i suggest THE BOTANY OF DESIRE by michael pollan. look for other titles by him, too.

and i hope i didn't completely villify whole foods. it just seemed like miss u. was looking for some insider info on them. they ARE better than most but with a little effort one can do even better for themselves and the environment - both locally and globally.

Yes, CSA,, thanks Goblin that's what it's called, I forget things,lol

I'll have to check out Michael Pollan.

To me the primary point of Whole Foods on E. Houston is overdevelopment.

Get out of the neighborhood.

I don't want property values to go up so I end up having to pay more rent because my slimey landlord will jump on the excuse to boost it again.

Whole Foods on E. Houston just falls in to being part of the 'unofficial' program of ethnic cleansing of the zone.

As for the organic/sustainable topic, it is so far past the time when people need to develop alternative models -the buying a share of the farm model is a great innovation- and we will continue to see this split in the retail food store market; mega big box stores -afterall Whole Foods is like an upscale Kmart for food- and smaller essentially collectivist models. What is a corner Korean deli with its veggie and fruit stand but often an outlet for 'homegrown' produce.

I've got Key Foods on Ave. A. that has a modestly diverse range of product. It is affordable to virtually all. Around the zone there still exists a critical mass of small highly independent vendors of specialty provisions. Chinatown and its abundant superfresh food markets is minutes away. If you want niche specialty noshes there's the indoor market on Essex, Russ and Sons is literally down the block from the Whole Foods as is Yonah Shimmel's. A big box market here my not be evil but it is totally out of place.

Whole Foods on E. Houston is simply bombastic, aggressive overdevelopment so blatant
it represents a sick image whose humor is the fatuous ugliness of arrogance.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: seven,

word!

Lex,

Try to shop TJ's before noon. That's the only way I can find the ABFAB TJ's Corn Chowder in stock. The line is not bad then. My beef is the 12 item or less line. As Robert Price said: why reward people for spending less money? I think they should have only one register for 12 items or less and enforce it. That way everyone would buy at least 13 items. Such wasted genius.

There's a common spice in Thai food called galanga / galangal. It's a root that looks like ginger. I just read online that it can be used as a hallucinogen!

I happened to notice that they sell it fresh at Whole Foods. Anyone ever tried this? I have had some powdered galaga in my kitchen for years. I just put some in my tea. Let's see....

I just saw Miss Understood trying to fly out her kitchen window wrapped in aluminum foil. You think it has something to do with that galanga?

That was Pete Burns, Bobby!

But nutmeg is a hallucinogen too, Missy, related to MDA. You have to take an awful lot though!